This question is posed to both genders. We know that males and females practice seduction. Males who study seduction techniques call themselves "pick up artists". We have seen a recent backlash against these sorts of behaviors. This backlash is associated with changes in the current etiquette which men most follow to be considered a "gentleman". We for instance saw a clear example of this backlash beginning with the anti-street harassment campaign focused on men who approach women in a manner which causes potential discomfort in certain women. We also see the basis of seduction science in what is called "neuro-linguistic programming". Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a method of enhancing the communication abilities of the practitioner. Seduction itself is a result of enhanced and highly attuned communication capabilities in my opinion but it must be noted that something like NLP is not fair and may favor the participant with greater brain power in certain areas, more physical attractiveness, or and just more experience in seduction.
Seduction as an expression of power?
For sure seduction can be used in ways which are unethical, and or even mean. Perhaps seduction can also be used in ways which are ethical and or less mean. But whether or not seduction is ethical as a whole hasn't been asked as far as I know?
And let’s be clear: yeah, there’s a whole metric fuck-ton of people who got into pick-up because they wanted to manipulate women into having sex with ‘em. But there are also people — the majority, I’d dare say — who simply want to get better at dating and have no idea how. Pick-up is the only real outlet for those people because… what else do we have? Movies that teach us all the wrong goddamn lessons? Say what you will about pick-up but at least it’s an ethos2
The quote above is interesting as it offers the male take on the "seduction community" which is a bit different from the techniques themselves. The techniques are something a basic understanding of college level psychology would make obvious. The actual skill like anything else is built from experience dating a lot of people. The question then becomes is it abuse if someone has a lot of power measured in seductiveness and they use their advantage to get what they want from other people?
Every five years or so I read a story about how street hypnotists or gypsies are mesmerising and robbing people. Is this a true robbery or did the woman give a gift to a stranger and then realize how stupid she was and decide to say it was a robbery? We could read into it either way but what do you the reader think?
In the Boston case, the victim claims three young women approached her on the street. One of the women asked her a series of questions – all in Cantonese — about her family.
In the span of just a few minutes, the victim alleges the women hypnotized her without her permission and convinced her to go back home and put all of her valuables in a bag.
When all was said and done, the victim handed over to these women $160,000 in cash and jewelry.
According to science hypnosis does not disrupt free will and can never be initiated without consent. All hypnosis is consensual and relies on trust between the hypnotist and the person being hypnotized. The idea that a person can be robbed involuntarily through hypnosis is equivalent to the idea that people are casting magic spells to turn random people into zombie slaves. Hypnosis only works by suggestion and not force so this means even the best hypnotist cannot for example make a person do something they believe is immoral, or wrong, or illogical. In other words, while hypnosis can reduce inhibition (we see this in stage hypnosis), it doesn't put the hypnotist in control.
This however isn't what a court said when a man was actually convicted of hypnosis rape. This case is interesting because there was no evidence at all that he had a means of coercing her beyond "hypnotic techniques". I find this case interesting because it shows us where the line might be between seduction and abuse, but it's unclear exactly even after this case whether or not seduction itself is ethical.
Last November, court documents showed Fine referred to himself as “the world’s greatest lover” after the Lorain County Bar Association filed a motion to have him suspended.
Clearly Fine did not see himself as an abuser according to the documents. This doesn't mean Fine was innocent and ultimately he was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
More on the Fine case, as Fine was a lawyer and this was also between a lawyer and his client which has unethical implications just on that.
It was business as usual. At least, she thought it was.
When she left, though, she noticed that her bra was disheveled, and her vaginal area was wet, according to court documents. Upon further reflection, she realized her memory of everything that went on in the room was foggy.
The meeting blurred into a blank spot, which was odd — it wasn’t as if she’d been drinking alcohol or taking any medications.
It happened again and again, either at Fine’s office or the Lorain County Justice Center. She was confused, worried.
Eventually, she grew concerned enough that in September 2014, she reported it to the Sheffield Village Police Department.
The interesting part about this case is she recorded her interactions with him for the police. In the recordings she presented to the police there were "sexually charged discussions" But the one quote which may have been damning against Fine was:
“You’ll only recollect what we were talking about your case until we see each other tomorrow,” Fine concluded. “Do you understand?”
While I do not have the details on the Fine case because I was not on the jury and have not dug deep to find more, I can say this case gives us a cause and effect example displaying potential consequences for inappropriate seduction. At the same time how does society determine whether seduction is appropriate or inappropriate and how would roleplaying be clearly distinguished from dangerous coercion? This is problematic and results in the question ultimately of whether seduction itself is the problem.
What about when women seduce? In some corporate examples there have been women who have been fired for being "too sexy". There are cases where women use seduction and if we deem seduction is an expression of power, is a form of manipulation, then if genders are equal would we agree that women using this power are abusing or manipulating others? This is to ask the question of whether seduction is unethical only if men use it, or is it unethical for women as well?
Robert Inchierchiro lost his job because he rejected the sexual advances of his female boss. Yes indeed it does occur that sexual harassment happens to men. These sorts of cases are clear cut in my opinion because employees who are in positions of authority (for precisely the reason shown in the example) are in a position to coerce lower level employees into having sex with them.
Recap and core questions:
- Do you think seductiveness is a kind of power which can give someone an unfair advantage?
- Do you think seduction as a whole is ethical or unethical?
- If you think seduction is ethical what are the rules to follow to make sure it remains ethical and does not cross the line?
- If you think seduction is unethical then how should you inform people that what they are doing is unethical?
- If seduction is unethical only in a certain context but ethical in another then under which circumstances is it ethical?
Men and women feel free to answer these questions and discuss how you feel on this topic. Some people (both men and women) view seduction as a subtle form of manipulation. This is clear based on the fact that in some cases women have been fired for being too attractive to men in the workplace. This is also clear based on the fact that some women view seduction as coercive and manipulative. Since this question is rarely if ever asked, now we can discuss the ethics of seduction.